Yes, too hard for me and my limited amount of time (and patience with redefined words). Especially when the 'definition' starts with a list of examples; examples are great for illuminating a definition but not such a good definition by themselves. It gets kinda wordy, which aggravates my estrogen-deprived brain. It would be nice if there were an understandable term for 'predetermined choices' without sounding so much like an oxymoron. But the fact that the concept is so foreign to our 'feelings' is probably why we don't already have one. So, I've summarized my thoughts on Free Will without even using the term, since we can't agree on its meaning. I'm going to edit this summary into the original post of this thread and update it as my thoughts change. If anyone wants their summary there, too, either post it or email it to me and I'll work with you on getting it added. I think it would be nice to have a list of summaries at the beginning so casual browsers can get our thoughts without having to wade through all the posts (leave it to an engineer ).

And, just one more 'clever point', just cuz my testosterone is acting up again: I've never heard of a clinical depression termed 'determinism'; I think anyone who can grasp determinism can also understand that it's not hopeless, they still have 'choice'. Can you imagine anyone actually thinking, "hmmm, my decision whether to get out of bed this morning is predetermined so it sounds like I don't really have a choice at all so why should I choose to get out of bed? I'll just lie here forever."? No, everyone still has to pee and then we get a bit hungry and then we start railing against the oppression by the capitalists! So, I see no reason, yet, to soften the language.

Here are my thoughts on free will in a nutshell:

Tom's current view:

1. All behaviors, personality, thoughts, feelings, and dreams come from our brains. There's nothing supernatural or spiritual.

2. Therefore, whatever choices we make are predetermined, they rely solely on the current conditions of our brains: memories/prior experiences, instincts/personality and what we sense from our environment; there's nothing else to tip the balance between 'yes' and 'no'.

3. Every individual's choices are essential to our collective predetermined future.

My predetermined choice to post this has changed your 'prior experiences'. Hopefully, enough of us will realize that we humans are the only beings that can consciously change our futures, and do so for the better. We are all cogs in the machine, there is no omniscient being that will straighten out whatever messes we make.